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Uncivil Discourse

by: Bill Moyers  |  Bill Moyers Journal

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Dr. Esther Kaplan (right) argues with an opponent of health care reform in Skokie, Illinois in August. (Photo: AP)

    Bill Moyers: The editors of THE ECONOMIST magazine say America's health care debate has become a touch delirious, with people accusing each other of being evil-mongers, dealers in death, and un-American.

    Well, that's charitable.

    I would say it's more deranged than delirious, and definitely not un-American.

    Those crackpots on the right praying for Obama to die and be sent to hell β€” they're the warp and woof of home-grown nuttiness. So is the creature from the Second Amendment who showed up at the President's rally armed to the teeth. He's certainly one of us. Red, white, and blue kooks are as American as apple pie and conspiracy theories.

Also See: Henry A. Giroux | Living in a Culture of Cruelty: Democracy as Spectacle

    Bill Maher asked me on his show last week if America is still a great nation. I should have said it's the greatest show on earth. Forget what you learned in civics about the Founding Fathers β€” we're the children of Barnum and Bailey, our founding con men. Their freak show was the forerunner of today's talk radio.

    Speaking of which: we've posted on our website an essay by the media scholar Henry Giroux. He describes the growing domination of hate radio as one of the crucial elements in a "culture of cruelty" increasingly marked by overt racism, hostility and disdain for others, coupled with a simmering threat of mob violence toward any political figure who believes health care reform is the most vital of safety nets, especially now that the central issue of life and politics is no longer about working to get ahead, but struggling simply to survive.

    So here we are, wallowing in our dysfunction. Governed β€” if you listen to the rabble rousers β€” by a black nationalist from Kenya smuggled into the United States to kill Sarah Palin's baby. And yes, I could almost buy their belief that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction, only I think he shipped them to Washington, where they've been recycled as lobbyists and trained in the alchemy of money laundering, which turns an old-fashioned bribe into a First Amendment right.

    Only in a fantasy capital like Washington could Sunday morning talk shows become the high church of conventional wisdom, with partisan shills treated as holy men whose gospel of prosperity always seems to boil down to lower taxes for the rich.

    Poor Obama. He came to town preaching the religion of nice. But every time he bows politely, the harder the Republicans kick him.

    No one's ever conquered Washington politics by constantly saying "pretty please" to the guys trying to cut your throat.

    Let's get on with it, Mr. President. We're up the proverbial creek with spaghetti as our paddle. This health care thing could have been the crossing of the Delaware, the turning point in the next American Revolution β€” the moment we put the mercenaries to rout, as General Washington did the Hessians at Trenton. We could have stamped our victory "Made in the USA." We could have said to the world, "Look what we did!" And we could have turned to each other and said, "Thank you."

    As it is, we're about to get health care reform that measures human beings only in corporate terms of a cost-benefit analysis. I mean this is topsy-turvy β€” we should be treating health as a condition, not a commodity.

    As we speak, Pfizer, the world's largest drug maker, has been fined a record $2.3 billion dollars as a civil and criminal β€” yes, that's criminal, as in fraud β€” penalty for promoting prescription drugs with the subtlety of the Russian mafia. It's the fourth time in a decade Pfizer's been called on the carpet. And these are the people into whose tender mercies Congress and the White House would deliver us?

    Come on, Mr. President. Show us America is more than a circus or a market. Remind us of our greatness as a democracy. When you speak to Congress next week, just come out and say it. We thought we heard you say during the campaign last year that you want a government run insurance plan alongside private insurance β€” mostly premium-based, with subsidies for low-and-moderate income people. Open to all individuals and employees who want to join and with everyone free to choose the doctors we want. We thought you said Uncle Sam would sign on as our tough, cost-minded negotiator standing up to the cartel of drug and insurance companies and Wall Street investors whose only interest is a company's share price and profits.

    Here's a suggestion, Mr. President: ask Josh Marshall to draft your speech. Josh is the founder of the website talkingpointsmemo.com. He's a journalist and historian, not a politician. He doesn't split things down the middle and call it a victory for the masses. He's offered the simplest and most accurate description yet of a public insurance plan β€” one that essentially asks people: would you like the option β€” the voluntary option β€” of buying into Medicare before you're 65? Check it out, Mr. President.

    This health care thing is make or break for your leadership, but for us, it's life and death. No more Mr. Nice Guy, Mr. President. We need a fighter.

    That's it for the Journal. I'm Bill Moyers. See you next time.

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Comments

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However, Mr. Moyers, problem

However, Mr. Moyers, problem is the President is not a fighter, he's a basketball player and he thinks like one. You can be a great player, make lots of points but you mustn't be too aggressive because fouls work against you - and your team. So he plays a nice game, makes lots of points, most of them when he's talking, and he tries to avoid offensive fouls. His team usually wins. But the Barnum & Bailey trained American public prefers to see two guys slug it out in the ring, nevermind they'll find out a couple of years later the fight was fixed. At least they can scream while they're watching. Pete Edler, Stockholm

Buy into Medicare! The best

Buy into Medicare! The best idea I've ever heard!

America, still a Great

America, still a Great Nation. It is, It has to be and it WIll be Is there any other country to replace USA to pour millions of men, money, and material for a cause of Human dignity, respect, freedom, truth and relief. Look at History., From second world war to date, The world is now definitely a better place to live., There is more freedom around the world with people enjoying human rights. nick

Well-said Mr. Edler. What

Well-said Mr. Edler. What is the president thinking as he lets this go to hell on a handcart? He will be a one-term president without a legacy. Strangely enough we seem to like to denigrate leaders who have intelligence and accept the ignorant ones. What a shame we are as a nation. Quite frankly I have a low opinion of us as a nation and that ridiculous statement always bandied about " the American dream'. Good grief as though other nations are totally bereft in the dream department. Well, dream on and hope for the best when you have a medical catastrophe. Lenore R.

Simple logical sensible

Simple logical sensible measures are dangerous and NOT to be bandied about willy nilly. If they caught on and were successful, our whole system would collapse.

You're exactly right, Bill.

You're exactly right, Bill. Obama is a gentleman and it is not in his nature to be aggressive and he's also trying to bring this country together. But as long as you have those evil people hoping and praying for him to fail, they do not want to advance this country with unity. What a shame to see the circus played out at Town Hall Forums in the guise of "free speech." It makes me feel ashamed of our country.

To Pete from Stockholm:

To Pete from Stockholm: normally I'd agree w/your basketball analogy & I think you're right. However, Moyer's point is that the US is in a crisis situation, down by too many points w/too little time left on the clock, for Obama NOT to be risking "fouls". His team is sick of defensive play and wants to see some points on the board...

W.E.B. Dubois suggested that

W.E.B. Dubois suggested that the challenge of the 21st century would be the "color line". We see that it is still a challenge in this 21st century. President Obama is being subjected to ludicrous claims that are only thin veils for the conscious and unconscious racism of Americans. For their own good, can Americans afford to be non-racist in what continues to be a very racist society? We shall see.

Sadly, I've come to believe

Sadly, I've come to believe that this IS the health care plan our President wants: one that assures continued, obscene profits for the insurance firms, the public be damned. Has Obama been in the pocket of Big Pharma and the insurance industry from day one? The answer seems to be yes, and that makes him Wall Street's "Manchurian Candidate."

Perhaps the basketball

Perhaps the basketball analogy is a good one. To my mind, Obama has been deeply influenced by organizing in poor neighborhoods. You must do your utmost to bring everyone along -you cannot discard anyone when you are working to organize a neighborhood to advocate and often fight for it's survival and improvement. A Lyndon Johnson was not shaped by that kind of experience which is why he could fight, as fight he did, for the Civil Rights Act of 1964 - without which Barack Obama would not be president today!!

Mr. Moyers, I reject your

Mr. Moyers, I reject your reference of the gentleman from New Hampshire as "the creature from the Second Amendment who showed up at the President's rally armed to the teeth." He possessed a pistol and safely carried it in accordance with state law. He was making a political statement by example, similar to statements you make constantly from your well-funded pulpit. If he is a creature of the constitution, then you are also a creature born from the same document. I recall your reference to yourself as a committed libertarian. Reform may be necessary to avoid an impending bankruptcy, but respectfully Sir, limited government does not include the funding of a health-care insurance system.

"As we speak, Pfizer, the

"As we speak, Pfizer, the world's largest drug maker, has been fined a record $2.3 billion dollars as a civil and criminal β€” yes, that's criminal, as in fraud β€” penalty for promoting prescription drugs with the subtlety of the Russian mafia." That's 'alleged' criminal activity since in the grand scheme of all things Amerikan there has been no criminal conviction nor acknowledgement of a crime having been committed. This was an out-of-court settlement. Nothing will change until we begin to hold those responsible personally accountable. Begin by bargaining from the position of strength and insisting upon a conviction and allocution then revoking their corporate charter.

This article could have been

This article could have been easily written by a neocon during the Bush administration, where conservatives often attacked peace rallies as violent and filled with hate-mongers. That was only a few years ago. I remember well because I organized dozens of anti-war demonstrations. And we were upset with Bush; we shouted, we were determined to be heard. The people on the other side of the aisle have that same right. Shouting at a US Congressman is not a violent act. But now Obama has become Bush III. And our friends on the Left who are now in power are acting strangely. They are doing what the right-wing did -- following "party over principles." At least Cindy Sheehan understands this and is now protesting against Obama and the war he continues to escalate in Afghanistan. My question is, why does the Left and Right always put their political party before principles?

Mr. Moyers speaks my mind.

Mr. Moyers speaks my mind. In discussing the rending of the fabric of our Democracy with my children by the self appointed and/or corporate back lingual terrorists of today I insisted that we, us, the family and our community must stand firm against the calculated hysteria. Just as one tells a brat throwing a temper tantrum to go to corner or get a swat on the rear we must tell these people that free speech does not not mean them but me having the right to not listen to drivel. They are bullys and they should be treated as bullys, at the age of three and the age of thirty three.

President Obama is also a

President Obama is also a former democratically-elected Senator from Illinois, law professor and community organizer, among the most-known and -documented of his actual vocations. I would ask the gentleman from Sweden to consider the swiftness with which he associates the President with basketball...and do some homework on your associations. The President has clearly done his. And I'm with the sage, Bill Moyers. It's time for the President to put an end to the circus nonsense. He can't control the media, but they need to be put on notice that there's more to cover in terms of real issues than maniacs screaming "afro-leninism." The "birthers," et.al., are the shameful living testament to de-funded public education in this country, and our highly-educated president needs to get them guaranteed healthcare and then get their grandchildren the superb education they *should* get in this country so they'll grow up to be smarter than the kooks who raised their parents and threaten to impoverish them.

Louisville, Kentucky Tea

Louisville, Kentucky Tea Party Hate Talk I'm a progressive and I had to see what's going on at these Tea Party's for myself. I shot tons of photos and put up 4 short to the point videos, trying to capture the flavor of the event. Photos http://hillbillyreport.org/diary/553/louisville-tea-party-photos Videos http://hillbillyreport.org/diary/555/louisville-kentucky-tea-party-videos Those that take the time to view them will be amazed at what is being said at these events James Pence

Good Grief, Bill! Obama is

Good Grief, Bill! Obama is "Mr. Nice Guy"? Where were you during the Democratic primaries last year? And, by the way, had you ever bothered to look into Obama's pitifully thin record, you might have noticed that one of his only accomplishments during his stint as an Illinois State Senator was to deep six that state's attempt to provide universal healthcare - to gushing praise from the insurance lobby's flacks. The problem isn't that he doesn't care about healthcare - the problem is that this is exactly the plan he actually wants: a giveaway to the healthcare insurers. But the real problem for us is that he has no clue how to govern (that pesky 'experience' issue, remember?). Until you (and all the other koolaid drinkers) finally wake up and realize how badly you've been conned by an incompetent sock puppet, you will never understand why things aren't working out. Nor will you be able to even approach what to do next. And, no, I'm not a Republican, I'm a 40-year Democrat who woke up in 2006 _"Impeachment is off the table." and was aghast at the monumental cupidity of the Democratic party in nominating and electing this cardboard cutout. Obama is the problem.

It's sad that some of

It's sad that some of Obama's worst enemies are in his own administration. If he replaced some of them (Emanuel, Geitner, Summers, and so on) I think we'd see a different presidency, one with principles and the strength to stand up for them. But even worse enemies are the conservative Democrats in Congress, who constantly try to block everything he tries to do. But healthcare reform can wait, even though people say it must happen now. It would be tragic for millions of people if it has to wait, but life would go on, and our country would go on. What can't wait is dramatically reducing greenhouse gas emissions. If we wait too long, that will be the end of everything. It won't matter one bit whether Obama improved the healthcare system in this country, because that system would be gone. Global warming is the one issue that Obama must not compromise or be nice on, because if he does, no other issue will matter in the long run. Unfortunately, I don’t think he fully understands this, and that may spell our doom.

The President is a mediator.

The President is a mediator. He believes in the power of group dynamics and good will and win-win. But mediation can only work if both parties negotiate in good faith. Good faith is not an element of this game, where the hard right scrabbles, scratches and plays dirty not to win a benefit for the American people, but raw power. The essential tool of that game is brainwashing, and the soft spot is the American tendency to group paranoia. It should be remembered that paranoia is not just a susceptibility to conspiracy theories, but an overweening sense of righteousness. Those twin aspects are apparent in the manufactured controversies over the President's education speech and the position that health care is a human right. The spirit of mediation cannot survive in this environment.

I know many of us are

I know many of us are anxious. During the Campaign we were anxious. We thought then Senator Obama was not aggressive enough. We rung our hands as he undertook the task of choosing his VP. We flowed drops of sweat as he prepared his appointment to the supreme court. We are an insecure bunch. We are hope wrapped in anxiety. However, we should be reminded that running this country is a process; change is a process; that we should be as disciplined as the president. For the fringe, the birthers, the teabaggers, the committed racist; this is their last stand. If they can us to behave the way that they do, then the prevail. When ever our faith in the promise of President Obama grows weak, when doubt is our companion, when our impulse to choke those bastards is strongest; We should recall Jesus did great things without taking off the gloves. Gandhi achieved greatness without stooping to the levels of his enemy. As Martin Luther King showed, we can force change by letting hate and racism loose it strength through the light of its own exposure. I think we should tell President Obama we are still with him. We elected him in part because he promised a different approach. We must have faith that we can succeed even when we cannot see over the top of the next hill. It was true durng the campaign. It is still true.

The buy into Medicare is the

The buy into Medicare is the huge threat what the hissing, crying and fighting of the insurance industry is all about. The insurance industry doesn't want the old because they are a much higher risk and cost factor. The old and sick are already dumped on the public via Medicare. The insurance industry wants the young and healthy. Low risk, low cost and high profit! Most insured will never find out how bad or good their insurance really is because they will not need it! Those who need it are denied coverage until they die; perfect solution because then they can't complain anymore. WHY SHOULD THE PUBLIC VIA MEDICARE SHOULD NOT ALSO GET THE GOOD INSURANCE RISK (YOUNG PEOPLE) WHEN IT HAS TO CARRY THE BAD INSURANCE RISK (OLD PEOPLE) ALREADY? It shouldbe imperative to have also the good insurance risk in the public plan, this lowers the cost for all tax payers and lowers the profits of the insurance industry. THAT'S WHAT THE FIGHT IS ALL ABOUT! Mr. President you work for the people and not for the insurance industry, which is represented by the Republicans and also by parts of your own party. If you want to survive as a President than you have to fight for your believes!!!

So well written - so

So well written - so thoughtful---thank you Mr. Moyers for your incredible insight...I hope Mr. Obama is listening...indeed we need a FIGHTER as our leader-no Mr. Nice Guy!!!

Yes, Bill! Thank you for

Yes, Bill! Thank you for being you. The language is a trifle strong, but the issues and concerns are right on. I agree this is make or break for us -- many many many of us. I'll support the strong public option with all I've got, but if our President and Congress don't stand up and enact it, I'll pull out totally and go all out for single payer, here in California first, later on, everywhere! This debate is an insult to us all. And so so tragic, since we are literally dealing with life and death here.

To L.K. Samuels: You are

To L.K. Samuels: You are correct that both the left and the right have ideologues who subordinate principle to political victory. But you are completely wrong to assert that shouting down all reasoned communication at a town hall meeting on health care is the same as a public anti-war protest. Rush Limbaugh calling President Obama a racist is not the same as Michael Moore demonstrating in a film that Bush was an incompetent. Criticizing Bush for claiming total,unreviewable executive power in patent contravention of the Constitution is not the same as asserting that President Obama was born in Kenya, contrary to all reason and evidence. These are not equivalences, any more than the Soviet elections that rubber stamped dictatorship were democracy. The right has simply learned to dress up greed and indifference to suffering in the Emperor's new clothing. And you appear to be one of its tailors.

What is really absurd about

What is really absurd about these people who cannot accept that Obama beat the "war hero" and the "beauty queen" by 9 million votes, is that they did not offer a whimper of protest while Bush was raiding the Social Security surplus to give the top 20% and their corporations generous tax cuts, starting two endless, mismanaged wars that have cost over $1 trillion so far in only SIX YEARS, and all of it borrowed, and ultimately more than doubling the national debt! The fact is that the deficits and the job losses for at least the next two years belong to Bush and the Republicans in Congress, but the Obama haters have a death-grip on denial!

Indeed, Eliot, the Obama

Indeed, Eliot, the Obama team seems to be trailing but you know this game is still in the first quarter - a lot can and will happen. The real problem is that it's not a game we're watching but real live people getting killed. Obama's casual style and deadly droning from center court is beginning to look like terrible colonial arrogance to the world. Pete Edler, Stockholm

I remember Nikita Khrushchev

I remember Nikita Khrushchev saying many years ago this: "America will destroy itself from the inside out!" Boy, do I hate seeing his Orwellian words coming to fruition. Can we stop this madness as a nation? I don't know as much as I hope that we can. The inmates have taken over the asylum!

I agree with Bill Moyers

I agree with Bill Moyers with one caveat up to the point where he exhorts Obama to fight. These crazies have always been with us. Think of the vituperation and lies heaped on Jefferson , Jackson, Lincoln, and FDR Think the Know Nothings, and the Klan. FDR, this quintessential Wasp was rumored actually be Rosenfeld, a closet Jew. All were dividers. Lincoln gave no thought to healing wounds prior to a total victory. As for Obama, if he was to show any fight how could any one in their right mind believe that this fight would be in the interests of anything the "left" holds dear. After all he campaigned as a war a.k.a. imperialist candidate (think Afghanistan). Obama in his talk has thrown a few sops to the "left", however his walk has always been with the pharmaceuticals, the health care insurers, and the financial sector, while the "real" economy on which working people depends be damned. Empire has always been to the determent of the working class. Think Rome at the height of the empire. Likewise thing England in the 19th Century. Welcome to Bush II's 3rd term.

Michael Bugg, you are so

Michael Bugg, you are so right. So many liberal, in trying too hard to be fair, totally warp their perspective, just like the moderate wing of the news media, in trying to be "fair" give equal time to obvious lies, while the right-wing media is nothing but lies. And, unfortunately, I'm becoming more and more convinced that manfried is right too. So sad, as so many had such hope that Obama would be different from what we've had in Washington since Reagan.

A flaccid White House, a

A flaccid White House, a tough Congress and a split Senate do not a hopeful picture make. Obama is a shrewd and calculating politician, but now he has to take the reins and drive to the conclusion he wants. He will be held responsible no matter how it all turns out anyway. He IS the President, after all, and he is supposed to have the cojones to go for it. So far, only Nancy Pelosi has had the courage to speak the truth and to back it with her political power and influence. Yo, Barack, take note! As for the "crazies," some of whom are toting firearms after listening to their talk-radio leaders, they are easily and amusingly dismissed until one of them commits mayhem. I'm really just waiting.... Let's hurry up and get the public option for health care that Obama campaigned on. Let's get out of this economic hole that banking and finance industries got us into with assistance from Congress' blind-eye. And let's get out of Afghanistan now -- a truly bipartisan idea, incredibly shared by columnist George Will, the families of the dead, and most recently-polled Americans.

I have been to numerous

I have been to numerous peace rallies and to several "Tea Parties." They are NOT all all the same. I have never seen the level of obscene placards nor the level of rude behavior directed at peaceful people(like myself) nor the overt references to killing our elected leaders. Not at all. I have never before witnessed such obscene posters and so many insults directed at peaceful participants(like myself). Although I myself have big reservations about the plans coming out of Congress, it was impossible to dialogue with the Tea Party crowd whose antics and insane assertions are not to my knowledge being disavowed by their organizers. The ones I have talked to are so bogged down in misinformation that it is impossible to discuss with them the real concerns I do in fact have about the healthcare proposals coming out of Congress so far. There is a realistic plan in the pipline in Congress. It is John Conyers' HR 676 which will soon surface in the House of Representatives bearing the title of the Wiener Amendment. It is a single payer plan of the type that will really cover everyone without busting the budget. Check out the website of Physicians for a National Health Plan, the people who really care about you and really know what they are talking about.

Bravissimo Bill Moyers!! It

Bravissimo Bill Moyers!! It is such a joy watching real coverage on a subject such as in the Moyers PBS program. I also hope that President Obama begins to use his election mandate and do what he knows is the right thing to do regarding this healthcare issue. Even if the President is talking to the insurance companies and big pharma, I hope it is to get more information from them so that he can bring them down to size, and their CEOs salaries and stock options. MR. PRESIDENT, YOU HAVE THE MANDATE TO NOT DISAPPOINT US!

Some form of health care

Some form of health care package will be enacted. However, if it's any permutation of cosmetic, the effects will be immediate. Even if politicians claim that their ineffective bill would take a tad of time to take effect, each individual death, at the hands of health insurance profiteers, will cause the visceral outrage that won't go unheard. Sometimes, it's the voice that is smothered which rings the loudest.

America is suffering a

America is suffering a cultural psychosis of immense proportions with or without Obama. This cultural distress to our nation has brought about a massive sense of demoralization to all and everything. Old thoughts, ways, values, answers to the great problems of our times hold no weight in the midst of this great evolutionary national collective death which the demoralized and stunned to inaction -cannot shake off but continue to plunge further into the psychosis of self-delusion and madness. Civility, a connectedness to the past,present, future and wisdom have fled public and private discourse and action. We should congratulate our young President for his form of governance which forms the basis for a new kind of leadership in this early Global Era. Unfortunately our collective cultural psychosis is antithetical to governance which is not dominating, violent secretive, aggressive, cruel, duplicitous.... What the visionary Obama needs to do Mr. Moyers, as you well know, is to become the Guide who will get us out of this hell zone with a new Boon so that America might turn to its regenerative and transformative consciousness again back into history. We need big time healing for sure and it goes way beyond the health care debacle.

There is more to Mr. Moyers'

There is more to Mr. Moyers' comments than just an opinion about health care. He touches on the loss of civil interaction we have been witnessing in our society for some years now. We NEED the liberal voice, the conservative voice and all those in-between so that we can, collectively, make the best decisions possible. Instead, we are hearing a voice primarily funded by industries promoting their own self-interests at the expense of society as a whole. This is what hate talk radio is all about: selling us, average citizens, ideas which will harm us and our families in the longer run. A great movie to see is β€œThe World's Fastest Indian”. In it, you see conservatives, liberals and many people pulling together to help a 63 year old man reach his dreams, all without the distraction of hate talk radio. Can we be that way again? Mutual trust is the foundation of a stable community.

Bill is the best and overall

Bill is the best and overall he h ad a great program . . . but he sure missed on his response to (the antitrust laws will take car of any corporation that gets too big with too much political power.) He should have noted that too much political power can change the enforcement of the antitrust legislation. Therefore, antitrust is not an limitation for too much political power or too much free speech. - Arlen

A most appropriately-timed

A most appropriately-timed wake-up call for anyone interested in healthcare reform. Bill Moyers refuses, as he should, to take the bait of the Obama White House's renaming of the healthcare debate into "health insurance reform". That title virtually guarantees a dog-and-pony whitewash of reform for the benefit of corporate insurance providers only. It's okay to be a nice guy, just so long as you're not simultaneously a fool. And President Obama, please do not take hardworking Americans for fools, I fear you will not like the result come 2012.

The problem is not whether

The problem is not whether Obama is too nice, or whether the right is too vicious. The problem is in a Federal Constitution drafted in compromise with slaveholding states, whereby all states were given 2 Senators, regardless of their populations, and an equally significant handicap in favor of the smaller states within the electoral college. As a result, our Democracy is distorted, and a relative minority must be catered to in order to get anything through the Senate, and, indeed, to be elected President. When a Senator from Wyoming is elected by 120,000 votes while a Senator from California is elected by close to 4 million, guess where the most cost-effective lobbying and campaign-contribution dollars will gravitate? And guess what issues dovetail with effort to get those small-state conservative Senators elected? Ergo, the great hue and cry and attention paid to a conservative minority who would, in a truly representative democracy, be constantly left holding the short end of the stick. And hence the alliance between backward-looking rural and undereducated values, and anti-government corporations. Fix the political system, give California the equivalent of 12 votes out of 100 in the Senate, the proportion it would have if we had a one-person one-vote Democracy, add New York and Illinois, and you would have a humane healthcare bill in a second. Without true democracy, you have the grotesque attempt to magnify the voice of a benighted minority through the funding of right-wing media and "Tea Party" nonsense, all designed to add pressure to conservative Senators, most of them from smaller states.

Good comment Pete.

Good comment Pete. Proportional representation is perfectly logical and would cure a lot of evils. And it's too bad the Democrats can't just jettison the ridiculous Blue Dogs (Blue Bitches). They don't seem to be the least bit helpful.

Donate to Kucinich now, he

Donate to Kucinich now, he is working for real health care.

Stephen Trad, St. Louis,

Stephen Trad, St. Louis, wrote: Mr. Moyers, I reject your reference of the gentleman from New Hampshire as "the creature from the Second Amendment who showed up at the President's rally armed to the teeth." He possessed a pistol and safely carried it in accordance with state law. He was making a political statement ... Sorry, Mr. Trad. I reject your notion that the gentleman from N.H. was making a political statement. He was clearly intending to intimidate anyone who dared to disagree. Anyone who carries a weapon to a political event is a nut.

America is not the "great

America is not the "great nation" that some imagine, or would like to believe. It certainly has had it moments and periods of greatness, without continuity. It is, and always has been, a POTENTIALLY great nation, but only if or when united by, and behind, the constitution and the vision of our greatest leaders (those, at least, that most of us agree were great). It is not, nor will it ever be, sustained in its greatness so long as we are divided against ourselves by hatemongers, fringe groups, and bigots. Sad to say, but Bill is right - as of now, we are the United Circus of Anti-Americans, a very sad failure on our part to hold onto the most precious of ideals.

It is painfully true that

It is painfully true that Kucinich offers solutions that the Big Boys never deign to discuss. Why is that? If Obama is such a collaborator and a compromiser, why can't he find his way to Kucinich's door? Well, probably Larry Summers is blocking the view.

At least Cindy Sheehan

At least Cindy Sheehan understands this and is now protesting against Obama and the war he continues to escalate in Afghanistan.

Consider the price of Ms. Sheehans enlightenment: the life of her own son. If this is what it takes for the rest of us, then the oceans will run red with blood before we refuse mendacious summons to war.

Pete, how about a

Pete, how about a parliamentary system? That is how the countries with better health care than ours are governed. Time for a constitutional convention. Didn't Jefferson say every twenty years?

I think Americans on the

I think Americans on the right have been in a continual state of revenge since ... you name it. It feels as though the starting point was the Nixon administration though I wouldn't argue with those who put it at Reagan or back to the Civil War. Revenge pushes people to extremes. Revenge is a soul-killer and man! it feels like our soul has been dead or dying for decades.

I think Obama must have been

I think Obama must have been reading the FDR biographies "A Traitor to His Class" and the others recently published. All of them emphasized that during the 100 days FDR had REPUBLICAN cooperation, especially the Western progressives. The current GOP, whether bought and paid for conservatives, racists, or just plain crazies, greet Obama's outstretched hand with snarls and barred teeth....I devoutly hope he has got the message and will respond in kind on Wednesday.

What to do about fascist

What to do about fascist owned AM hate radio? Boycott it's 'sponsors'. AND join your party of choice before the 2010 PRIMARIES, and vote out every lying stealing rat in the senate FIRST BEFORE THE ELECTIONS. Show these radio propaganda goons that you ARE listening by REJECTING EVERYTHING they say.

Well said, Anonymous at

Well said, Anonymous at 15:22!

The loss of civil

The loss of civil interaction is key to this whole dilemma. There have always been "lies and vituperation" heaped on people like Jefferson, FDR, and the like. The huge difference is technology. It took days for messages to get across the country when Lincoln was president, now we have electronic communication that is instant and pervasive and gets into every corner of the world immediately, and whoever speaks loudest gets hear most. I think we have lost our civility partly because of technology. We have lost a sense of community and the idea of the social contract, so it's OK to shout down people and threaten; violence is just under the surface--and too often it does surface. We no longer understand that only working together is going to help us solve problems. Only by listening to each other can we figure out the best answers. I think the wealthy have theirs and they have set part of the population against other parts of the population. They are like the Roman emperors who could watch the bloodshed and mayhem below. The rich just get richer while we all destroy ourselves down here, leaving more for them. I wonder if we'll ever get smart and all of us down here in the trenches and on the worklines join together to figure out good answers to all of the problems that beset us.

R.e. the hate radio I do my

R.e. the hate radio I do my best to ignore: A well informed (not a mis-informed) electorate is the bastion of Democracy. People spewing hate, death threats and pure bunk are mis-using our right to free speech. What they are doing is equivalent to shouting "FIRE" in a crowded theatre. I seem to remember this as a benchmark in a Supreme Court case some (many) years ago in my youth. People threatening the President's life should suffer the full penalties of the law, as this action is illegal. Where is the Secret Service, and why are these terrorists allowed to continue with their filthy rhetoric?

The suggestion to have

The suggestion to have everyone buy into Medicare makes absolute sense to me I have been on Medicare for 10 years and I have found their policies and decisions make good sense to me. As I understand it Medicare operates without profit and only a 2% overhead. Show me the corporate manager who could compete. This idea could solve a lot of problems, including all the false statements by the opposition. And I hope with several of the above writers that Obama comes out of his corner swinging. Tom

WHO are these people?? To

WHO are these people?? To the gentleman who posted the links to the Louisville "tea party" videos, as a fellow resident of louisville I just had to watch. " Give me liberty or give me death did not mean give me death panels" WTF? Conservative Radio talkshow host Mark Williams who I've never heard of until just moments ago who the hell are you? And the angry lady with you? And the crowd for that matter? Why on earth are people like these talk show hosts allowed to travel the country spewing literal, intentional, unbridled misinformation? Why the hell are slander/libel laws even on the books if not to stop transient rabble rousing opportunistic entertainer ego-maniacal con-men? They've actually gotten to the point where they're dangerous. Its not free speech. Its baseless, and incendiary.... all so this guy can promote his show or book or whatever..... the movie "Network" nailed it.

"It's only a paper moon,

"It's only a paper moon, hanging over a cardboard sea....it's a Barnum & Bailey World, just as phony as it can be." -- Nat King Cole. Moyers is right on, once again. There are so many Americans living in an illusion of national greatness based on ignorance, waving their flags of indiscriminate nationalism , while their country, which they purport to be the greatest democracy on earth, is turning into a devolving second rate colony controlled by today's versions of the East India Company, which we once protested in the Boston Tea Party. It's all upside down, topsy-turvy, as Moyers said. True reform, in the face of our corporate oligarchy, which I prefer to call fascism, requires some fundamental reforms to our democratic process, since the two-party system is failing. But those two parties control the constitutional amendment process, with the possible exception of an Article V convention. One sorely needed amendment would be to ban political contributions from other than natural persons, and to allow congress to limit individual contributions, since campaign finance control laws – weak as they are - are now being threatened in the US Supreme Court (this week). And we need another to effectively change the 14th amendment to replace β€œpersons” with β€œnatural persons.” Jefferson pushed for an 11th amendment in the Bill of Rights to control corporate power, and he looked back with regret on that defeat. We’ve been paying for that omission ever since. [http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5168523] Let's try to fix that.

If Obama caves again on

If Obama caves again on Wednesday it is time to begin planning on a third party for the 2010 elections (Howard Dean, Dennis Kucinich, Paul Krugman, Bernie Sanders, Arianna Huffington, George Lakoff, etc.).

What about Ralph Nader? You

What about Ralph Nader? You could call it the Zenith Party. :) [response to Tue, 09/08/2009 - 18:07 β€” Anonymous (not verified)] Seriously, though, third parties don't win in our winner-take-all system due to strategic voter behavior; you need IRO (instant run-off) voting for that to work. Or, there might be a chance if that National Popular Vote initiative gets passed in enough states to make up 271 electoral votes. Still, there would be all those representatives and senators in the corporate R&D department.

Please, people. It is too

Please, people. It is too simple to need explanation. I tis pure racism and nothing else. Obama is a black dude and the white right CANNOT stand it. Period. PRF

Thank you, Pete, for your

Thank you, Pete, for your comment added a needed dose of reality into our discussions. It is so frustrating to hear "progressives" talk of how Obama should "just push single payer," or "just pass it with the majority." We need a to have an understanding of how our govt. actually works. Obama can propose, urge, etc, but the congress legislates. Obama is our ally, potentially, but we do not yet have the level of mass movement, public involvement needed to push conservative legislators to push thru needed far reaching progressive legislation.

Obama's timing is not Bill's

Obama's timing is not Bill's timing nor mine. Abe Lincoln drove his supporters nuts with his delayed timing, but most often his timing was perfect. Obama drives his supporters nuts in the same way. Last night he hit it out of the park at just the right time.

I thought Obama's speech

I thought Obama's speech before the joint session was OK, but sadly dismissive of the public option. Coops won't have the bargaining power of a US gov't insurance pool (like Medicare), so the President's characterization of them as 'constructive' alternatives to the public option doesn't wash. Triggers simply represent prevarication, and the possibility that the health care industry will worm its way out of accountability. Just not sure what 'buying in' to Medicare would mean. As I understand it, Medicare isn't pay as you go...we're paying for the current generation's care now, later generations will pay for our care. Just not sure how that would work. BUT...I'm not saying it isn't workable. Goodness: we're funding two wars. We can find a way! Every other liberal democracy has some form of public plan available to its citizenry. Excellent point, Pete. Pie in the sky to expect a Constitutional Congress, but your diagnosis is on the money. Nothing is going to change that crazy disparity in representation anytime soon. I'm halfway hoping nothing passes so we can go back and do this right, the single payer way.

Maybe before all you people

Maybe before all you people start defending a so called president you should get a copy of the bill and study it well. It is not totally about health care but about the freedoms we the people of this great nation have being taken from us and to never get it back. Personally I think we need to start a recall and get someone in office that firmly believes in the constitution and is willing to put his hand over his heart during our nation anthem (unlike Obama) This is not the Obama nation this is the United States of America. Wake up people.